INCREDIBLY upset right now.n/a

11 months agokumasanmk ☆彡

@BassAgent, you know you are not helping yourself by being that aggressive and vulgar. Thanks to stay calm and courteous.

Concerning our matter, I guess we all understood what Bongtron tried to say earlier in a really clumsy way (we all know that English isn't his forte): he did both sell figures himself and as an intermediate for this mysterious Mandarake friend. He would like to let us know that the first usually goes smoothly for both him and his buyers (what I'd like to believe) and that he'll stop doing the second. In my opinion, this eventual complicity of scam, itself, justifies a ban from our sale section so I won't go back from my decision.

11 months ago4Arnd Enjoy Your Life! 楽しい毎日を...

Can everyone please refrain from further comments (or opinions) on this matter, until BassAgent and Bongtron have sorted it.

Thank you!!

11 months ago (11 months ago)Wayfinder ┬─┬╯╯︵ /(.□.)\

xeno_00 (11 months ago) #979956I forgot to reply to this. The payment I sent for my friend who got his 2 figures were NOT sent in Mandarake packages. There, you were waiting for someone to step up and say so. The package came from Vietnam.
Okay, that's good. That suggests that his "friend" explanation is more plausible - that he's also acting as a front for dodgy activity at Mandarake rather than entirely being it. Thank you!

xeno_00 (11 months ago) #979956Of course, I meant send the package back to Mandarake. Sigh, please read my comments in detail. I did write it in my previous comment before.
Yes, I did notice that. I did not respond to it because it was not directly related to what I was writing at the time. I have responded to that aspect below. There is no need to resort to loud sighing, possibly with accompanying eye-rolls? (I know that I would be eye-rolling if I felt that I was not being substantively responded to. :P) Sending the figure back to Mandarake as part of the Paypal claims process would not be productive, but sending it back afterwards is the right thing to do (assuming of course that there isn't a perfectly legitimate explanation for what we've seen that means everything's actually square).

EDIT: Or actually, forwarding the recovered money on to Mandarake (by arrangement, with their agreement - possibly at the original 15k JPY price?) and keeping the figure would also properly square things and prevent further losses from shipping costs, right?

11 months ago (11 months ago)xeno_00

Wayfinder (11 months ago) #979934Thus far, we have heard from nobody who bought from him and did not receive the package direct from Mandarake (i.e. no activity that would suggest "legitmate" sales by a collector seeking to sell their things).


I forgot to reply to this. The payment I sent for my friend who got his 2 figures were NOT sent in Mandarake packages. There, you were waiting for someone to step up and say so. The package came from Vietnam.

Of course, I meant send the package back to Mandarake. Sigh, please read my comments in detail. I did write it in my previous comment before.

11 months ago (11 months ago)Wayfinder ┬─┬╯╯︵ /(.□.)\

xeno_00 (11 months ago) #979946I thought I mentioned that I read all the comments, and that includes Mandarake's suggestion. The point is, why keep a figure that you know wasn't acquired 'legitimately' (if that's the right term)? If it came from Mandarake and it was done using a scam (still not proven up to this point), then send it back. If ever you get your $150 back from Paypal, use some of it to send the figure back, you lose some money but all's well in learning your lesson.
FYI, I also sent $180 to Bongtron for a figure. The figure was unavailable so he refunded me the whole amount.
The idea that a scam is taking place isn't "proven", but it is certainly overwhelmingly supported by what we have seen. We're not in a position to be able to say this beyond doubt (especially if Bongtron decides to stonewall or provide FUD-style responses without evidence), but it's currently as "very probable".

I agree that keeping the figure and getting money back is wrong because it leaves Mandarake out of pocket still. But thanks to a weakness in Paypal's claim framework, there's not a good way out.

Flip the board around and consider who's being enriched here in the two suggested courses of action other than what is being done:
1) If he keeps the figure and doesn't claim, Bongtron keeps the money. Based on what we've seen, that money's been acquired by ripping off Mandarake. Bongtron has been enriched by theft, which is wrong.
2) If he claims and sends back (remember - Paypal asks people to send back to the seller's registered address, which is not Mandarake), Bongtron ends up with a figure and Mandarake is still out of pocket. Additionally, BassAgent is substantially out of pocket from sending it to Vietnam. Bongtron is still enriched by theft.

The fairest thing to do here IMO would be to get the money back from Bongtron using the current claim (which prevents exploitation of Paypal's framework) then send the figure back to Mandarake. BassAgent is still out of pocket from shipping back to Japan, but it puts things back the closest to how they "should" be. However, Mandarake would likely have no idea why a figure has suddenly turned up. If they could bear some of the cost of shipping back (as well as shed light on WTF is happening - which they're not likely to do because that'd involve admitting they're vulnerable to exploitation), that'd be ideal.

11 months agoBassAgent

Stop giving me shit. I wasnt even goibg to do a xhargeback until mandarake themselvea told me they wantes me to.

11 months ago (11 months ago)xeno_00

Wayfinder (11 months ago) #979943Most of this is coincidentally addressed by my previous post. One further thing - while I'm not approving of the tone in which it's being done and am ambivalent at best about counter-exploiting an exploitative seller, this particular course of action was actually Mandarake's own suggestion:

I thought I mentioned that I read all the comments, and that includes Mandarake's suggestion. The point is, why keep a figure that you know wasn't acquired 'legitimately' (if that's the right term)? If it came from Mandarake and it was done using a scam (still not proven up to this point), then send it back. If ever you get your $150 back from Paypal, use some of it to send the figure back, you lose some money but all's well in learning your lesson.

FYI, I also sent $180 to Bongtron for a figure. The figure was unavailable so he refunded me the whole amount. I am not siding with him. But it's just unfair to keep on bashing him when nothing has been proven 100%.

11 months ago (11 months ago)Wayfinder ┬─┬╯╯︵ /(.□.)\

xeno_00 (11 months ago) #979937Let's see now, you're interested in a 1500-only limited production Alter Jubei going for $150 with free shipping where the market price is upwards of 15k yen + fees + shipping? Do we classify you as "stupid" based on your comment here? Who doesn't like figures for good prices after release?

Now you want your money back and keep the figure? If this is indeed from a scam (which has never been proven yet, mind you), you should return the figure to the address it was shipped from.

You're irritated by the fact that not everyone is on your side? Get a life please. We want to complete the picture from both sides. As it stands, there are a lot of unclear matters which need to be addressed by bongtron.
Most of this is coincidentally addressed by my previous post (which was not addressed to you, I know - but it does touch on many of the points you raise). One further thing - while I'm not approving of the tone in which it's being done and am ambivalent at best about counter-exploiting an exploitative seller, this particular course of action was actually Mandarake's own suggestion:
MandarakeHowever, I really have a very good idea on how to strike back on this.
you said you payed the money to paypal address bong_tron_1988@yahoo.com.vn
right?

So please file a claim to paypal that you never recieved the item from
this guy on this payment. Then, this person will be forced to show proof
of the shipment, usually a tracking number. But you can tell paypal that
this tracking number is a shipment from Mandarake, and not from this guy.
So tell him to show proof of the shipping label that it was shipped from
him to your address (which he cant).

So in this way, he will just end up stealing a tracking numer with a
package that was shipped from Mandarake to your addresa and will be
forced to refund you the full payment!!!

If this continues, he will not be able to do this fraud business.

Please help me on this.
And if you no other friends who experienced the same situation, please
tell them to do the same.

best regards,

International Sales Department
Kono
-----------------------------
Mandarake.INC
(ext link)
international@mandarake.co.jp
tel:03-3228-0007
(12:00 - 20:00 Japan time)
-----------------------------

11 months agoxeno_00

BassAgent (11 months ago) #979910You guys can be stupid and defend bongtron if you want because you like the fact you can get the figures cheap. Youre the same type of people who will excuse yoirself of buying stolen goods and say its okay because you dridnt steal them yourselves and justify it because its a good price.

Let's see now, you're interested in a 1500-only limited production Alter Jubei going for $150 with free shipping where the market price is upwards of 15k yen + fees + shipping? Do we classify you as "stupid" based on your comment here? Who doesn't like figures for good prices after release?

Now you want your money back and keep the figure? If this is indeed from a scam (which has never been proven yet, mind you), you should return the figure to the address it was shipped from.

You're irritated by the fact that not everyone is on your side? Get a life please. We want to complete the picture from both sides. As it stands, there are a lot of unclear matters which need to be addressed by bongtron.

11 months ago (11 months ago)Wayfinder ┬─┬╯╯︵ /(.□.)\

The question is open, but the balance of evidence shown thus far is overwhelmingly in favour of the idea that Bongtron is involved in scamming - not scamming of buyers (who receive figures for a cheap price) but of Mandarake (who appear to be either victims of CC fraud or employee embezzlement of stock, performed with Bongtron as a front). In this case, it appears that his/their system slipped up and a figure offered was double-sold. Instead of backing out of the transaction, the scammer/embezzler sent a different version of the figure, questions were asked, and the whole thing came crashing down.

Thus far, we have heard from nobody who bought from him and did not receive the package direct from Mandarake (i.e. no activity that would suggest "legitmate" sales by a collector seeking to sell their things).

At this time, I'm thinking saying "well we need to hear both sides" is a little stale (in the sense it's been too long). Bongtron was notified about this post two days ago by Kuma (the admin) - although I note that he's since deleted Kuma's comment from his page. He saw it at about the same time. Yet, the only time he's come in here to give "his side" was directly after a Paypal dispute was lodged. That's a full day between finding out about this and saying anything. When he does say something, it's only "don't judge me, you don't know man, YOU DON'T KNOW" rather than providing any proper explanation or evidence.

If Bongtron was a legitimate seller, he'd have protection against a claim of this type. His initial conditions for refund (ship it back to my "friend"! yeah!) would prevent any subsequent PayPal claim from completing and he'd keep the money. A claim that requires the figure be returned to him would not succeed (since Mandarake is the point of origin, not him) and he'd keep the money. The set-up of this particular scam is very resilient to Paypal's processes, as they assume a "wrong" item need only be sent back to point of origin (which they assume is the seller).

It's possible he's earnest about providing a refund, but even so the Mandarake question still demands an answer. Stolen goods are stolen goods.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong and that there's a perfectly good, innocent, alternative explanation for the observed facts that can be backed up with evidence - but Bongtron needs to provide that to counter the evidence we already have.

We're still waiting.