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Comments The peculiar case of yaoi hate

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  • Yaoi is made more for sexual reasons than like plot. If you want to read a BL story for the plot than go to shounen ai. All erotica fetishizes everything from race to gender to sexuality. You can apply this to loads of anime tropes like is it racist for anime to fetishize those with darker skin??? Japan is not very open to homosexuality (or other sexualities besides straight) so maybe the LGBTQ+ community views it differently then us westerners?
    3 days ago
    https://pics.ballmemes.com/johnny-test-wiki-dukey-dukey-standing-on-two-legs-powers-48364607.png
    3 days ago
    Nia-kun3 days ago#97912342I believe you would enjoy this read, OP, as it has reliable sources and a run-down of the history and modern misconceptions of fujoshi and BL! Highly recommend for anyone wanting to learn more. rottenboysclub....
    Here are some great translated Japanese articles as well on the subject:
    Do Japanese Gay Men Read Boy’s Love Comics, Dislike ‘Fujyoshi’?
    web.archive.org...
    "Evolved Boy’s Love: How Fujoshi Could Eliminate Prejudice"
    web.archive.org...
    Users @Nifffi and @general-radix left very insightful comments which pretty much sums up the entire hullabaloo that has plagued BL for a long time, but I would also like to chime in.
    Back in the earlier days of internet fandom, I remember the classic "don't like, don't read/look" rule which I believe should be brought back in order for people to curate their own spaces so they don't have to see BL. It's fine if someone doesn't like BL, but when it trudges into extremist comments like "I just think it's gross and wrong," or "It's disgusting and anyone who enjoys are disgusting degenerates," (I've already seen this in the comments of this article) then I am questioning how that person feels about IRL queer people, gay men especially, because those are the same types of derogatory comments made towards us by family, community, and politicians.
    The term "fujoshi" originated in Japan and is a Japanese word which means "rotten woman". As you and others mentioned, it came into usage to describe a woman who consumed BL and did not fit traditional "wholesome" standards and would therefore, "never find a good husband". That's it! To define it as something else such as "a straight woman who fetishizes mlm" is ignorant and racist as westerners are notorious for appropriating and assimilating words and cultures in order to fit a White standard. Since then, many Japanese women and creators and reclaimed the name, in-turn taking away the power it had over them from men.
    The short answer can simply amount to the fact that BL is something that is created and enjoyed by queer people AND women. People, men especially, love to make fun of women and girls who enjoy literally anything (romcoms, boy bands, even fucking Starbucks??? it's endless). Not to mention the rampant homophobia that plagues fandoms, whether or not some people want to admit it or not.
    There have been numerous scientific studies as well that delves into why straight women are large consumers of gay porn. A main take-away has been because they are seeing men being objectified and sexualized the same way women are, thus giving the power back to the female audience.
    Also, I don't think anyone should have to consume BL "critically" or have to think about the rights and wrongs of doing so. It's fictional entertainment, a fantasy made for escape, and you shouldn't even be trying to think of writing a research paper when you're consuming NSFW content. Who cares? Just let people enjoy what they want, no one owes some of these commenters an explanation. And if people so worried what mlm think of BL (which, let's be real, many people are not, they just want a reason to shit on fujos), the articles I linked above should help.
    Whew, sorry for such a long post! lol I just think it's super important to shut down misconceptions and lies about fujoshi and BL I see all the time.


    I don't mean research when I say 'critically'. I simply mean being aware on how media effects you.
    Like have you ever gotten really into a show or game with a group of friends or seen it happen and you start to repeat lines, behaviors, or attitudes around it? Most of the time this is harmless but sometimes you can look back and realize you were pretty trash person during that phase and some of the stuff you said and did was really cringe. There is no harm and great benefit to taking a few minutes to reflect on what you enjoy, I think.

    p.s. if you weren't referencing my point, sorry I still wanted to clarify anyway.
    3 days ago
    I believe you would enjoy this read, OP, as it has reliable sources and a run-down of the history and modern misconceptions of fujoshi and BL! Highly recommend for anyone wanting to learn more. rottenboysclub....

    Here are some great translated Japanese articles as well on the subject:

    Do Japanese Gay Men Read Boy’s Love Comics, Dislike ‘Fujyoshi’?
    web.archive.org...

    "Evolved Boy’s Love: How Fujoshi Could Eliminate Prejudice"
    web.archive.org...

    Users @Nifffi and @general-radix left very insightful comments which pretty much sums up the entire hullabaloo that has plagued BL for a long time, but I would also like to chime in.

    Back in the earlier days of internet fandom, I remember the classic "don't like, don't read/look" rule which I believe should be brought back in order for people to curate their own spaces so they don't have to see BL. It's fine if someone doesn't like BL, but when it trudges into extremist comments like "I just think it's gross and wrong," or "It's disgusting and anyone who enjoys are disgusting degenerates," (I've already seen this in the comments of this article) then I am questioning how that person feels about IRL queer people, gay men especially, because those are the same types of derogatory comments made towards us by family, community, and politicians.

    The term "fujoshi" originated in Japan and is a Japanese word which means "rotten woman". As you and others mentioned, it came into usage to describe a woman who consumed BL and did not fit traditional "wholesome" standards and would therefore, "never find a good husband". That's it! To define it as something else such as "a straight woman who fetishizes mlm" is ignorant and racist as westerners are notorious for appropriating and assimilating words and cultures in order to fit a White standard. Since then, many Japanese women and creators and reclaimed the name, in-turn taking away the power it had over them from men.

    The short answer can simply amount to the fact that BL is something that is created and enjoyed by queer people AND women. People, men especially, love to make fun of women and girls who enjoy literally anything (romcoms, boy bands, even fucking Starbucks??? it's endless). Not to mention the rampant homophobia that plagues fandoms, whether or not some people want to admit it or not.

    There have been numerous scientific studies as well that delves into why straight women are large consumers of gay porn. A main take-away has been because they are seeing men being objectified and sexualized the same way women are, thus giving the power back to the female audience.

    Also, I don't think anyone should have to consume BL "critically" or have to think about the rights and wrongs of doing so. It's fictional entertainment, a fantasy made for escape, and you shouldn't even be trying to think of writing a research paper when you're consuming NSFW content. Who cares? Just let people enjoy what they want, no one owes some of these commenters an explanation. And if people so worried what mlm think of BL (which, let's be real, many people are not, they just want a reason to shit on fujos), the articles I linked above should help.

    Whew, sorry for such a long post! lol I just think it's super important to shut down misconceptions and lies about fujoshi and BL I see all the time.
    3 days ago
    The only time I have a problem with yaoi AND yuri (it’s not even much of a problem, just cringing really) is when a fandom takes established canonically straight characters of either gender and turn em gay/les. It’s more predominantly done with the male characters though. Ex: Eren Yeager x Levi Ackerman (attack on Titan), Ruby Rose x Weiss Schnee (RWBY), The whole Midoriya/bakugo/kirishima/todoroki thing in MHA. Yeah... that ain’t it chief, but other than that have at it. Sex sells so of course Japanese are gonna fetishize the hell out of yaoi/yuri especially when they’re more sexually liberated over there compared to the west.
    3 days ago
    I have a problem with this yaoi/BL is bad because it fetishizes gay men because all erotica, porn, and even romance is made for only that reason. Erotica is made to sate our sexual and romantic desires in a way that can't possibly be realized in real life. Think of another simple, beautiful, neat and tidy way other than reading or watching something produced to cater to those desires perfectly. To me there is no such thing as ethically made erotica that is bad or wrong.

    I think the real conversation that needs to be had is how we consume our media including erotica. I do believe that yaoi consumed uncritically than projected on to others and society is a problem just like I believe the same thing about porn or action movies. I think instead of trying to make people feel guilty or wrong for the types of media they consume I think we should instead encourage a culture that can reason why we are drawn to that type of media, what we are absorbing from it, if and how much we are projecting it in the world in a problematic way.
    3 days ago
    The gay fetishizing is a valid reason for people to not like yaoi, but it's ridiculous to think it's a valid reason to cancel BL or yaoi. I mean, I don't enjoy the fetishizing of women in hentai/porn/ecchi but I don't think it should not exist. I know it's not intended for me, so I just avoid it. Basically if you don't like it then don't read it.

    Part of the hate for yaoi is also the cringey teenage girls making us more civilized BL lovers look bad.
    3 days ago
    I forgot to add this but I also wanted to mention that yes, there are things worth being critical about in BL, and yes, there are people who like it that are just bad people, but the same can be said about literally any other genre and fanbase, they're not really a good arguments against it.

    Cloudy_Cat3 days ago#97910769In my experience, people who act up the "fujoshi stereotype" and say weird things about their ships or act weird towards irl men tend to be younger people, mostly high schoolers, who are excited about discovering queer content they like. And I think most of them tend to grow out of it, I actually haven't seen very many cases where people act like this anymore. I'm pretty sure most of the people who create and enjoy "yaoi" are queer, and either way people who aren't queer should be able to enjoy stories about queer people. The whole "targeted at straight girls and women" thing always bothers be because they're literally gay romance stories, which will attract people who like romance and/or gay stuff.
    I also think some of the people who heavily criticize yaoi are very uncomfortable with sexual content or problematic content (both of which gei comi is absolutely full of), with non queer people or non mlm reading mlm content, and/or with men being portrayed in a way they think is feminine or 'heterosexual'. It's a whole bunch of insecurity and self doubt and fear of femininity and being perceived by straight people. And self hate and internalized homophobia tbh.


    All of this is so true. People tend to forget that teenagers act in cringey and embarrassing ways all the time, and that's something normal that they grow out of.
    In general people seem to judge LGBT media way more harshly than non-LGBT stuff. Gay stories aren't allowed to be dark, or self indulgent, or to deal with controversial topics. They all have to be 100% good, wholesome representation or else they're homophobic.

    Melian3 days ago#97910716From what I've gathered from VTubers, fudanshis seem to actually be VERY common in the eastern BL community.
    Also, this is a great comment.

    That's good to hear.
    Thank you <3

    Azulloria3 days ago#97910868I really enjoyed reading your thoughtful comment and perspective♡
    Glad you did, thank you!
    3 days ago
    I've seen so many yaoi fans just get attacked online for basically no reason other than that they enjoy yaoi.

    So, even if they were correct in saying that yaoi is harmful to gay people (which I've never even had proof provided to me for, sometimes I wonder if they say it just to say it)... The pure toxicity that they spew at people just enjoying what they enjoy is just as harmful, if not more, so whatever argument they had in that department is already not so valid.

    I hear a lot that they believe it's "rape-y" or "too forceful"... All I can say is I hope they never find out about BDSM. In fact, I've even seen people preach about BDSM being rape.

    To me it just seems like a lot of twitter teens just throwing around horrible words without knowing the sheer weight of their accusations.
    3 days ago
    Contrary to other opinions, I don't think there is as much homophobia and conspiracy contributing to this issue. I think that whole fetishization argument is legitimately held by a lot of people who identify with these super "woke" values. That said I also don't think many of these people are gay themselves, for however much that's worth. It's dumb, and it's not even a BL exclusive issue, Uzaki is an easy example. Of course, there certainly still is homophobia or even just severe dislike happening as well, I just don't think it's as prevalent in the kind of people who'd watch anime.

    As for why this doesn't happen to GL is probably a couple things. To start it's seemingly not nearly as popular, making it a smaller target to begin with. There is also a lot of GL seemingly written by women, and more of it seems to appeal to women than BL does to men. Idk how true either of these are, but as someone who has been interested in both for a number of years that's my perception. So I could see why there would be less focus on it if that's also other's perception. Also, I don't think men are generally as vocal about liking GL as fujoshi are about BL, which would probably contribute to this.

    I think all the hate is pretty dumb regardless of reason, and I see these people as the same kinds that complain about fanservice, so I'm on whoever's side that opposes them. Which if I had one criticism it would be that, I think there are a fair number of hypocrites into BL who do complain about that kind of thing, not really a criticism BL itself. Besides, I like BL as well, though I typically prefer it as hentai. Especially if it has femboys or traps, I have a preference for feminine I guess. As a very horny bisexual I'm probably the most despicable of creatures to the kind of people who hate it :p
    3 days ago
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